HavenPress brought up a good point in another thread on deep impression. The thread got a bit long. His point was that there probably should be a new design for a press intended to do deep impression printing. This in order to prevent the damage to the small presses only intended to do conventional printing. Others mentioned the big double flywheel Kluges and the cylinder presses that will roll pennies out flat. Yes, they will deliver the pressure, but it shouldn’t be that expensive or complicated.
The Washington press has very few moving parts and should be able to deliver good pressure. Maybe not the fine old Washingtons that still exist, but a press built on that design. It could be as simple as the handle operated Washington, or could have a pneumatic cylinder to move it. It could punch type or poly plates right down to the shoulder and into a pine board. Get steel type with a tall beard/deep relief and you could punch even deeper.
I think I could design a prototype to do this. I say this only to express my belief that it would not be very complicated. I do not intend to do it. I am of the old school that was taught what was called fine printing. We were taught to print on the paper and not into it.
I respect the artist who may wish to create differently. As an engineer I also hate to see machinery abused. Thus, new machines should be built.
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Seems like a lot of effort to go to for a fad. But then I guess people invested in grids and confetti when printing went through those phases. I recently saw a greeting card that was printed off-set, then punched with a matching die (out of register). Is that where this is going?
Rochat in London are re-manufacturing the Albion press, good sized bed, the press has been beefed up, stronger metal etc, should be/ able to deep impress but should be checked out of course, they will have worked out the pressures in the re-design-don’t forget old hand presses like the Britannia?were used for this too….polymetaal.nl do a series of hydraulic relief presses, it is still possible to pick up old kniebel? presses in europe that were used to emboss into book covers, also maybe presses that used to squash flongs onto type, plus many brands of press that are used to cut and crease big sheets of card for packing your white goods etc etc-Peter Luckhurst might be able to advise on these sorts of machines eg Crosland die cut presses
to Inky and others
There are probably some engineers out there who have nightmares about what is done to letterpress presses which were not intended to do “smash” printing.
Just to start some ideas:
The cylinder press seems like a good idea, and with vague visualisation, seems to be suitable for safety guards; please do not ask why I mention safety. Try this idea: a cylinder press with a long bed, and a width of (say) 12 inches maximum; all built very heavy (strong); but with a safety device in that the bearings of the cylinder are restrained by a renewable strip/bar of metal which is intended to break before anything else, thus relieving the pressure. [I’d hate to think of a press smashing itself if it was built to these specifications (cost$$$$$).] Real engineering would allow the pressure to be relieved on both sides of the cylinder very quickly when one side breaks; Perhaps some form of hydraulic link between the two sides, the hydraulic pressure relieved if the opposite side moves?
Lots of maybes and perhapses, which reveals my ignorance of how it could be done, but even the greatest fool may put forward an idea from which the intelligent can produce a useful item (with a lot of perspiration from thought)?
Consider the bending stresses on a platen press, it may be that a cylinder press (like the rolling presses used for stereotyping using flong) can be built without the bending stresses being so destructive. [The stereo presses had a roller under the travelling bed of the machine which was a “reflection” of the upper roller. From memory the rollers were large diameter and solid steel.]
I have also a vague visualisation of using type which is the reverse of traditional letterpress type, on the “other” side of the paper/card, and thereby achieving embossing instead of “debossing”; but have not visualised an effective method of putting ink on to the raised parts of the paper/card. I can’t recommend that type made from lead alloys be used in this manner, but most work would be printed with small point sizes of type.
P.S.: Is verkotype or vercotype still available? — A.
Everyone talks about kissing the paper, but i guess if you look at the flong you could say that the deep impression has been around for a long time.
Smash Printing = smashed type. What part of that are people simply not getting???????
@dickg I did business with a company that made electrotypes, stereotypes and rubber stamps for box dies. The hydraulic presses used for impression were huge, and much like the kind of press used for rubber stamping. They did not use type, but used plate specifically deep-etched for the purpose. They did use type for box dies, but only to pull proofs, then deep-etched plates were used for the matrix which was heated. The problem with the deep impression movement is not that it is being done, but that it is being done with equipment that is not designed for it.
my last real job was hand setting type for a company that made dies for printing on corrugated boxes. We had 4 full time comps and a couple of other guys that could help out if we got in a jam. a lot of the type was atf that had a lower shoulder than the standard type, they called it deep cast. I never heard of it before. Even Ludlow made special type for the corrugated die makers that cast a deeper face. Those stamp presses were huge, i think they were somethine like 3 or 4 feet across and 5 to 6 feet deep, they were heated with steam, we had 2 of these where i worked and they sure heated up the shop. When we locked up the chases they had to be very tight or in the moulding it would pull the type out. we locked up so tight that we broke chases all the time, also snapped the high speed keys and even broke some quoins. My boss would cook his grilled cheese sandwich every once in a while in one of the presses, there were steel bearers to keep the press from closing all the way, sometimes we would sneek around the back and pull out the bearers so when the press closed he would have a grilled cheese about as thick as copy paper and about 3 feet around. Those machines had something like 50 tons of pressure per square inch. Now all that stuff is done polymer.
@Foolproof546, they just came out with this wild new invention called photo polymer. These modern day geniuses figured out how to make printing plates out of the stuff. No smashed type. I’m pretty sure that’s the part of it that people ARE getting.
@dickg You had a real job???
Interesting, I’m glad my comment spawned some discussion. Some of you might remember me talking about a guy who hammered some type into a wooden board for a graphic design project a while back.
I’ve been printmaking for nearly 11 years now; been letterpress printing for about 6 of those, from handset type and polymer and cuts.
I think it’s notable that there is an interest in deep impression. I think it’s interesting that this is done with machines that will eventually fail because of this abuse.
Those are my two main points of reason as to why I think there should be some redesign or retrofitting of existing machines.
Personally, I’m printing by hand in small/short runs, usually less than 1,000 pieces, and equipment wise am working with Vandercooks and a C&P model N 10X15 platen.
I find that as long as I don’t exceed certain tolerances, I’m very happy with my printing, and as long as they know the difference between distasteful smashed printing, my customers (and the people I collaborate with/publish the work of) are very happy with it, too.
I’m also quite happy to turn a customer down if they want the impression pushed more than halfway thru the caliper of a sheet :-)
I also am talking about polymer or copper there, not type… Mostly I try to be pretty soft with type, a little bit of bite but nothing that I feel would damage it.
It’s more plates and cuts I’m worried about here, anyhow.
Cast Iron is stronger than lead (largely), but it’s difficult for the mechanism to overcome a plate on a base.
I have spent my share of days wondering why type doesn’t print anymore or how that sort got damaged. I also have a type high gauge and know the undercut of the cylinders on my presses. Which means that, like many of you, I can do the simple math required to calculate the terms of impression by measuring the stock and packing properly. This is basic, but I think some people lack it and try to feel out; there is no excuse for not knowing your stock’s thickness to the thousandth, setting up the packing to come almost up to that, and then adding tissue to make it perfect until it bites just the right amount. I languish and enjoy this at the same time. It’s stressful and thoughtful and artful and I think it’s a part of the process overlooked.
What I’m purporting, though, is that although polymer might be replacable- the bearers and cylinder bearings and various nuts and bolts are NOT easily replaceable.
Some people want deeper impression than the press should be obligated to provide, and think they are doing so penalty free because they’re not flattening precious type; only polymer…. So I am taking the stance that it would be a beneficial thing if there were equipment produced which were capable of printing from such forms and plates in such a way as to not wear out that piece of equipment.
Sure, there are etching presses. Yes, these are available in a variety of sizes, and even motorized- but they absolutely will not keep up with a proof press in speed or ease of operation. Neither will an albion or other flatbed handpress. Hand inked, slow printing mechanism, and the sheets have to be registered by hand in a fumbly way or a mechanism needs to be devised.
I’m simply saying that if there were a flatbed proofing press capable of such qualities and at a higher rate of speed, the public might be on board- especially if they knew there were replacement parts.
But- conversely- some might argue that with a pool (albeit, not plentiful) of Vandercooks already out there, and a supply of platen presses like the Colts Armory, perhaps the folks who have this need can satisfy it with what is there. I just worry about 70 years down the line when we’re all having our bearers and impression cylinders turned down because of excess use, or the castings on our platens are cracking due to fatigue.
I don’t even know if this is an interesting topic, it’s just something I thought of and felt I would discuss. Maybe Devil’s tail is right, it’s a ‘fad’…. I mean, I’ve seen the kind of business card he brought up, even. It’s just, this seems to be something people want….. at the same time, should everyone be given exactly what they think they want?
I’m not really sure of any of this. I’m just happy to take part in a discussion with such distinguished and mixed company with a variety of viewpoints and experiences, both silver lined and covered in ink. Hats off to all of you.
Mark, i’m not too worried about 70 years down the line, by then it will be my cylinder and bearers that will need replacing, most of my castings are showing quite a bit of wear, maybe i’m not oiling them enough, but my printing equipment seems to be running strong. ps Very funny Paul.
Heidelberg seemed to think that their Platen was designed with heavy impression in mind. They brag about it in the “Hints for the Pressmen” with regards to embossing. In fact they suggest that you can belay purchasing “so-called” heavy duty machines in favor of the speed produced by the machine.
I am not an engineer, but I would think that the stress of deep impression on Lettra via photopolymer would be similar to hitting a die doing embossing work.
This seems to explain why there are Tiegels that have spent years, and years doing nothing but die cutting and still going strong.
There is one point that only a fool could deny regardless of your impression affiliation. That is that far more equipment has been saved from being scrapped due to the resurgence in interest in letterpress which is primarily focused on the tactile nature of impression, than current kiss impression practitioners ever could have hoped have saved.
I am also a bit skeptical labeling letterpress deep impression as a “fad”. Not many fads have the kind of search history that you see with letterpress:
If it is a fad, it has certainly had a good run.
rontxhou, in addition to being a printer of many year’s experience, I have also been called to diagnose press problems by less-experienced printers in many studios and shops. Vandercooks, C&Ps, Colt’s, but no Windmills.
While a total lack of lubrication would rank as the greatest failing, attempting more impression than the press can handle would be a close second in terms of destructive use.
Heidelberg’s writers would not recognise the current trend to heavy impression as normal use. Embossing was generally done as an accent to other printing, say a logo. They did not envison a whole form of type done as if it were embossed as the only reason for printing. Don’t mistake sales pitches for actual industry practice.
The sad fact is, I’m no fool and I’ve seen more equipment taken and abused or neglected in the last 30 years than I have seen taken and used intelligently with an eye to the future. 10 or 20 years is a very short run from my perspective.
I hope that my comment was not perceived as an insult to you or others. I have a great deal of respect for you and very much appreciate your experience and wisdom and have benefited greatly from it.
I should not have used the term - Fool. But, I am hoping that regardless of ones impression tastes/politics, we would all agree that much more equipment would have been melted down by now if letterpress had not seen a resurgence.
I also would not disagree that for a press made 80+ years ago that the trend I pointed out is a short run. But, I think that calling something that has had a consistent and growing following for over ten years a fad is maybe short sighted. I am at least skeptical that this is the case.
I would have to agree with your point regarding abuse and neglect. I am stunned by the lack of mechanical knowledge expressed in many of the forum questions. In some cases I think the abuse tends to come more from ignorance than intent.
I respect and care deeply for my presses. I purchased a Heidelberg cylinder that by many shops standards was in A++ condition. However, I have put 200+ hours into cleaning, inspecting, and restoring the press to the closest possible condition of “new” without completely stripping the machine (which probably would have been easier). I also own three job platens, a Universal III, and several table tops. All of these presses are in excellent condition and well cared for. I needed something to do during the hot Houston summers… what better than be a caretaker of these old presses?
Now, back to what I was trying to offer as a productive point to the thread. It seems that the amount of impression that is being done today such has HavenPress practices is in my guess the bulk when looking at it from a volume perspective. There are certainly those which do more, and certainly those that strive for a kiss, but it seems like the largest number of presses that are printing and not scoring or die cutting are doing this level of impression.
This being the case, the folks that intend to do this long term that are true job shops producing this type of impression do need to have a eye toward the future as Eric says. Even if the Windmill design was engineered to support this, the equipment certainly was not intended to last as long as they would need to with no replacement in the market…
” Even if the Windmill design was engineered to support this, the equipment certainly was not intended to last as long as they would need to with no replacement in the market”
This is a good point, and I match it; I contend that it is recognized by many experts in the field that the equipment is not going to outlast it’s current rate and style of use.
So, what are we all going to do about it? Is someone going to do anything about it? Is there a need for this in the long run?
Haven Press, they are doing something about this, haven’t you seen the little plastic presses.
I believe Fritz @ NA Graphics said that at one point some years ago they were quoted $50k per press for an initial run of 10 Universal III’s. I may be off, the quote is on vandercookpress.info somewhere, but I do remember that the number was fairly large. Keep in mind, that Fritz has the blueprints in hand, so much of the engineering/design/drafting has been done sans the tooling required for production.
That is a big leap in CAPX compared to what we currently pay for equipment. Also, I love my Vandercook, but it is by no means a Windmill and that caliber of machine is what is required for a busy shop.
There certainly will be a need if we are not experiencing a fad at some point. The question needs to be will the product margin be great enough to support the CAPX required for newly minted equipment?
At a minimum, it would certainly cause a barrier to entry that does not exist in today. Today someone with little capital can start in their garage.
The need is to keep the equipment that is presently running in good shape. The infrastructure for letterpress is very weak; there isn’t enough letterpress happening to even faze the printing industry as a whole. The cost of developing new equipment would not be borne by the letterpress field as it exists now. How many people would spend $60,000.00 to $100,000.00 for a new letterpress printing press, even if we could talk the Chinese into making it?
The only relief style machines being made are specifically designed for die-cutting or foil stamping. The majority of the existing letterpress machines are used for just that. What we see here on Briar Press are a couple hundred people who operate largely out of their garages; some trying to preserve what they can, and others trying to figure out a new way of doing something that has existed for about 560 years.
A few enterprising people have been able to operate going concerns and are making money, but I’d like to know one person on this list that makes their living with a Kelsey or Adana. Even using a hand-fed C&P it is difficult to print enough product to make any money. Is there a need for a bigger and badder letterpress machine? My forty year experience says no.
@DevilsTailPress - I agree with your point regarding table top presses not being suitable for job work. But, I am not sure that this was ever suggested in this thread.
Not trying to be confrontational, but you may want to investigate the market a little bit more. There are more than a few organizations making money. Some still operate out of their garage, but some which started in their garage are now in fairly large facilities. Many of these have several employees - not just a husband and wife team or two best friends.
@rontxhou, I hate to burst your bubble, but letterpress is a very, very small part of the overall printing industry. In most statistical charts it doesn’t even warrant it’s own category, but is listed under ‘other processes’. I’ve watched the commercial printing market for 40 years, and printing as an overall industry is in a decline due to the growth of the internet. When I started working in off-set I was assured that letterpress would be gone in 10 years. Thirty years ago I watched as hundreds of shops and suppliers shut down because of the advent of electronic typesetting, and it has only been downhill from there. As I said above, there is no longer the infrastructure to support letterpress. Relief printing presses are no longer being made, letterpress type manufacture has been severely curtailed, letterpress inks are now considered specialty items, letterpress papers are disappearing from the marketplace, and all of the supporting industries have either closed or moved in a different direction.
In this country printing is a $178 billion dollar industry that employs 1,000,000 people. How many letterpress printers do you think there are? Most of the letterpress operators are employed in the die-cutting and gold foiling aspect of the industry, and it has been that way for quite a few years. I suggest that you should do your own homework, because I’ve been doing mine for years.
@Devil’s Tail I suggest you are overestimating the value of your 40 years of homework about the past, and how this may affect the future of printing, and the need for more purposely designed letterpress presses.
Commercially, increasingly today and in the future, print by itself is not enough. You need to pair it with something else such as specialty finish or tactility. I’m sure you’d agree that the landscape wasn’t like this in the past 40 years.
Yes, the letterpress market is a currently small, but it is fast growing. I suggest you go speak to Boxcar et all, about their “garage” operations.
I’d also suggest that Boxcar et all _would_ be interested in “bigger and badder machines”, as per inky’s point.
I’m going to mention the elephant in the room, there are large groups of Briarpress visitors who elect not to participate in discussion because they respect, and perhaps are also intimidated by the longer established crowd. For example, some unfortunate soul asks something that is a “no-no” and BAM!!! -… they’re shot down by the same people who’d be better off ignoring the post. Quite sadly, this happens even if this question was asked in the Beginners section.
rontxhou hit the nail on the head: There are more than a few organisations making money. Some once operated out of their garage, but now employ many. I’d suggest they don’t participate as frequently on Briar press for parallel reasons to the beginners.
If you took inky’s suggestion out of this green pen, and into the commercial letterpress world, I’m sure they would express interest. It’s in their commercial interests and livelihood to do so,
Everyone agrees that more purposeful letterpress technology is required for achieving deeper printing impression. Older machinery simply wasn’t designed to do this. The best people to ask to get action are those running large commercial operations (…often not found here).
noftus raises some valid points. Briarpress is a terrific destination for people initially entering letterpress with little or no experience. For the most part, the regular posters are only too quick and too happy to offer sage support and guidance. Some however display their cranky, haughty dispositions and seem to take satisfaction in making these obviously uninitiated enthusiasts feel stupid - how lame is that?! What is worse than throwing cold water on the enthusiastic entrants to a new endeavor? Let’s all offer what wisdom/advice we can, and spare judgement on the qualifications of those seeking it til later…
@DevilsTailPress - I may not have been doing enough homework, thanks.
I have just been building profitable businesses. In fact, I have built a business in this industry that is currently providing an income for six employees (no we are not Consolidated Graphics). I also have an information technology business that employes many more than that. I am well versed with product marketing, CAPX/OPEX analysis, and business operations in general, but it seems that you have a better grasp on how we should steer the ship.
Do you suggest that we need to close our shop and lay off the six employees and look for work?
I am curious if you are willing and can you share your experiences (success/failures) of the businesses you have owned or have had P&L responsibilities? It sounds as if you could materially participate and provide some value in this area. Also, what would your suggestions be for someone trying to make a go of it in the printing industry? Particularly those with consumers that are at the high end of the social stationery or invitation market place.
Perhaps you can help us save our businesses.
I started this thread.
Thank you all for your contributions. It has obviously stirred the pot. Often it is good to get a bit emotional. It brings out your real feelings.
We need not agree with one another, We do need to respect one another.
I urge you to continue to contribute. If it is on topic, add your voice here. If it is a tangent, then perhaps you should open a new thread, as I did.
If you strongly disagree with another and want to say that she or he is wrong, perhaps you should do so privately rather than on the forum.
It is perhaps a hard call to make, but I suggest that we be kind to one another.
Get some ink on your shirt.
Ok, which one of you printing entrepreneurs are going to spend tens of thousands on some kind of beefed up press? Who are you going to get to design it, and where would it be built? Has it even occurred to you that most machining has been sent off-shore? Which of you has millions for design, tooling, and assembly line production? The landscape for the printing industry has changed a lot in 40 years. I never intimated that anyone should lay-off employees, on the contrary I am quite thrilled to see renewed interest in letterpress. Thirty years ago letterpress was totally off the radar and I had a lot of trouble trying to sell it because it was considered old and out of date. Six employees are great, but show me a letterpress shop with sixty. By the wildest stretch of the imagination figure that there might be 10,000 people practicing letterpress, ok? That is 1% of the total printing workforce. Do you think that is enough power in an industry to have any affect at all? I’m not even considering the amount of printing that is currently going off-shore, which is decimating the off-set industry in this country.
I think it is too bad that people with less experience wish to have all of their information sugar-coated, with a little pat on the head. The reason there seems to be a renewed interest in letterpress is the fact that equipment is getting so scarce that what little demand is out there outstrips the equipment on the market. Five years ago a Kelsey 5x8 sold for about $150.00, a C&P Pilot for about $250.00, and a decent Vandercook was high priced at $1500.00. Now, none of these presses are production presses, and yet they are the machines that have the most inflated prices. I see Heidelberg Windmills selling for about 1/3 more than they sold for 30 years ago, and cylinder presses are about the same. That doesn’t indicate to me that the market for production letterpress has changed much. It does indicate that hobby and fine-press printing has grown quite a bit, but that doesn’t translate to industry growth.
If you wanted to see cranky you should have seen the lifetime letterpress printers who were replaced by off-set, or the off-set printers replaced by laser-jet, or the silk-screen printers who are currently being replaced by other digital means. The industry is not going to move backwards to re-embrace letterpress, it just isn’t going to happen. As much as you wish it to be current and vital letterpress heard it’s death-knell back in the 1950s, and during my entire life it has been diminishing a little every year. When the parts wear out the presses will stop, when presses wear out they won’t be replaced, and that is what this discussion was really about. But thanks for the personal insults, it always adds so much to a conversation.
I don’t know about everyone else, but this thread is no more personal than any other. … It has been no more personal than the other cranky-posts, where some find time to put down those who post “stupid” questions in the Beginners forum…. Of course, we all mean well.
Devil’s Tail - are you aware how much an HP Indigo costs these days? What about a Speedmaster? “Tens of thousands” for a letterpress production press is extremely cheap, compared to hundreds of thousands, and millions.
I gladly put my hand up now to buy “some beefed-up press”, in order to save the machinery that wasn’t designed to be used that way.
In regards to possibilities of developing new technology: In 2012, we have come leaps and bounds with CAD (computer aided design). We have rapid prototyping technologies, 3D printing, and laser cutting. Yes, mass machinery production is not initiated in first world countries any more. But this is an OPPORTUNITY for us - not a hinderance. It is easier to create something from scratch with access to a lower cost skill base. There are new alloys and technologies which do not necessarily require cast iron.
Anything that will be created in the future will not replicate the past. Relating experiences from 30 years ago is helpful to reflect on, but not necessarily relevant to future growth.
Why do you also insist on comparing letterpress to the offset printing industry? Are you aware that the offset market is in massive decline? Justifying against doing something, because it is currently not “the largest” is a flawed concept.
I think it’s inevitable that some enterprising company or community will develop something purpose built for deep printing impression. Any progress however, is never going to happen via Briar Press. The community here is brilliant. Brilliantly focussed on celebrating the past of letterpress printing, the art, the craft and heritage. Rightfully and understandably so.
However, I really do wish that we as a community were able to form more of a progressive attitude about the future. There is a future where those who are very invested in the past, are unfortunately no longer with us.
PS. I currently employ 16 women and men in my letterpress only “print shop” (yes, women do print these days). Perhaps we’ll have 60 one day… and hopefully we’ll have new technology before then, instead of destroying what little we as a society have left.
@ noftus, Since you have all the answers, have at it. I’m sure that your community will come up with just the right answer. Please let us know about it sooner rather than later. If you really think that the decline of off-set is signaling the rebirth of letterpress I feel sorry for you. The paper printed word is in trouble, and as you must realize, we are not having this discussion scrawled across some fancy letterpress-produced, embossed (or debossed) letterhead. We are having it on what will replace it.
Devil Tail, i’ve come a long way, no longer in my garage but in my horse barn, hoof prints decorate the wall next to my ludlow, we have learned to use our equipment for other things, our shipping bench is used in the spring to hatch our baby chickens, when they get bigger and escape they roost on my kluge, i can’t open my door because the goats will roam in and eat everything in sight. There havebeen many who we have helped on this site over the years, lots of young and some older who get into this thinking they are going to make a living but are soon discouraged and i for one have seen their equipment go up for sale. Just a few years ago you couldn’t give the stuff away, i know i have scrapped way more than i have saved or found new homes for. In my area there were many shops that did a little letterpress but were mostly offset, now only a few remain. Its sad to see the trade dying like it is.
@parallel_imp I again thank you again for your help and assistance in the past. Your contributions are always informative and have value to the masses.
@DevilsTailPress I wish you all the best. I was hoping that you would come back with something that I could use to grow my business and keep us from the demise you predict. It appears that that is not the case.
@rontxhou, That is a very strange comment. I don’t don’t know anything about your business except that you assure me that you know all about it, nor have I predicted a demise for your business. All I have done is respond honestly to a rather bogus premise, and offer advice from my long perspective, for which I was pilloried. Too many people have no sense of history and forget to think about the bigger picture. For you to act like I can offer some sage advice to make your business grow, and then by not doing it I am somehow letting you down is dis-ingenuous.
@DevilsTailPress - Again, I wish you all the best.
Demise? No, but certainly an existence that is far from booming, commercial viability.
There are a handful of successful businesses that exclusively offer letterpress services, but how many of them also rely on selling design services for many times the price of the printing itself to stay afloat?
The growth in interest for letterpress might not be a fad, but it is certainly a trending aesthetic providing what is likely an inflated client-base for this type of work at this point in time, and the people doing the work are measured in hundreds of hobbyists and a handful of commercially successful shops.
And not to be “grumpy” or negative, but many of the ones who define themselves as businesses have only been operational for a couple of years. It will certainly be interesting to see how many of them will still be in business ten years from now.