Foil Stamping Sticking on Text Weight and Vellum

This one is for the experience foil printers out there!
I’m working on a Kluge EHD and printing foil on lots of varied stock, from 4 ply cotton to text weight. Coverage varies from job to job, but for the most part I’ve had tremendous results and few issues. I’m a great letterpress printer, but mostly self trained in foil with just a little bit of help here and there.
The main thing I cannot get a handle on is text weight and vellum. I can get them to feed usually with little problem, but they don’t stay on the platten and tend to pull off the press with the foil, with the current job pulling up on the guide side where I can’t apply much pressure using the fingers or hold-downs. I found one discussion thread on Briar about this topic, but didn’t find any of the suggestions working in my case. I question whether or not my die and setup was proper to achieve a good result (the die in this case was mounted at a 45 degree angle because it was ordered with an incorrect orientation). My coverage and print looked great, but they all pulled up when the press opened and the paper got dimpled and damaged or pulled completely off the press.
My press is a Kluge EHD.
My foil is Great Western and I’ve tried MR and MUH formulas so far, both with similar sticking issues.
I tested temperatures in the low and high ranges with no conclusive differences.
We have blowers, and I’ve adjusted and tried those with no help.
I have fingers and grippers where I can, but on the guide side (where the paper is pulling up, and where the die is extremely close to the paper edge) they don’t do a good job to hold the paper down.
I’ve tried running foil backwards and it caused similar damage to the sheet.
I tried putting stick-on foam on the fingers, adhesive rubber pads, and tapes to see if I could increase the hold-down pressure somehow.
So far it’s not happening, and I have had similar issues with a job on vellum in the past. We end up outsourcing and the people who can pull off these jobs use a Heidelberg and not a Kluge so I can’t compare their work to mine and I don’t get to see how they got it to work. Do I need larger paper and try to print in the middle of the sheet? Is it a certain formula of foil that is easy release (I’ve been told our foil is already the easy release variety because we use a Kensol with the same formulas)? It’s driving me crazy and would love any advice. Thanks!

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I have foiled on both Kluge and Heidelberg.
My suggestion for the Kluge is to loosen up the tension on the roll of foil. That way the roll will have slack and allow the foil to cool a little more before letting go of the carrier.
Good luck & post what you come up with.

Extra margin for more gripper will help a lot. try some different foils. infinity and general( a re seller not a manufacturer) will send samples and sell in small quantities. can you either post a pic of your job, or contact me through here. i would be glad to help you. i have been running foil on these EHD’s for 40 years.
Kurtz, API, and Crown all have minimums, not fun if you are ordering small qty’s or special colors.

I had to take the die off, but I took some photos of what it looks like oriented on the paper and also the setup I had on press when I was trying to get it to work.
I’ll look into testing some other brands and formulas of foil because I’m very limited currently as to what I have on hand to try.
This job is on a glitter stock so the paper feels coated. I also tested on some smooth white text weight and the same issues arose. The coverage was great but the paper was damaged from each printing, and sometimes the delivery wasn’t able to pick up the sheet because it wasn’t flat anymore.
Also, I can only use my Right Side Guide because the cam for left side (which worked fine until I took it off once) slides under the platten as the press closes. I’ll have to fix that at some point also.

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if the cam goes under you may have the wrong one, a 10x15 cam. these however are a brass, copper, bronze mix and can be bent up to stop that. i could send you a used cam at a greatly reduced price plus shipping. you can slide a rod into the pivot hole, it should be square to the cam arm on both could just be bent.
As to your job, I don’t see anything outrageous there. i think an easier release foil may be of big help. I don’t see anywhere on Great Western’s site about manufacturing quality control. I can only assume that they are also a re seller. Some of the re sellers have formulations or colors made to their specs, but most, are just buying in big qty’s and re rolling to selling in small qty’s. Both General and Infinity are excellent people to deal with. if you are buying from out west, USA. give “Metal Magic” a try. they have a division that is selling foil now. I’m sure they would be eager to help.
I at times like yours, have made “frisket” sheets attached to the gripper arms. Tape a sturdy full sheet to your arms. Tape it securely. then close the press on impression, stamping onto the Frisket. Follow by cutting with an “Exacto” style razor knife to cut out, closely,the stamped image. you will then need to cut out areas needed for delivery tubes to reach your production sheet.
I can send you a video of this process if you would like. in some instances, like you describe, it can work. The correct air blast is crucial. you can use a lot of pressure and have a long duration blow, this often blows foil off the advancing film. Or you can turn down the supply pressure and have a short quick blast. running the foil backwards then, does not matter about blowing foil off the carrier, other than leaving foil “dust” on your work piece. if you reach out to me, we can talk in further detail. have a note pad ready.
PS!!!! get that gripper out from the middle of the sheet! you only want 2! contact points. i get it, you are try hold the sheet in place after impression with any means possible. BUT, put that block out next to one of the others. you can run gripper retainers across the bottom, just not a block.

Ericm, a quick update. The frisket idea worked well. I ended up getting through that last job after we got a more friendly die. Now I’m trying out another attempt at foil on vellum. It’s been tough to avoid the sticking issue but also to get decent coverage. I’ve been packing it more and more and it doesn’t get better. It’s always almost there with areas of spotty coverage. It could be the type of foil once again. We tend to use Great Weatern because we don’t buy a whole lot of foil at one time. I’m not sure I can change that or who we buy from.
Do you have any suggestions on how to pack for a stock like vellum? What kind of board to print with on the platten? I’m using a hard red fiber board. We also have the more rubber-like phenolic board which I might try. Lots of soft packing? It’s got about 3-4 times what a 100# cover stock would require and it still isn’t printing fully. It’s running super hot too and that isn’t helping, so I’m really at a loss with vellum.

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there are 3 that make foil work. time; temp; pressure; these all have to be in balance; ie if you speed the press up you either have to increase pressure or heat…. this is not coincidence