Which Pantone guide do you use?

I just have a standard coated and uncoated (they are in one fan deck). It has the mix listed for each color. But alot of them are hard even for large printers to get right on mixing (with expensive scales ect)!
I often mix colors like paint. But if someone just has to have an exact match it is sometimes worth it to buy it premixed (but that might not even match given the way letterpress lays down ink compared to offset.) There are some posts here on the subject if you want to read more.

thanks…

i have a really old pantone solid matte deck and need to get a new one. i just didn’t know if the formulas were different for the various decks…

color bridge vs geo vs solid matte etc…

any thoughts?

From a veteran with 50+yrs experience.
Unless you are running a commercial setup I wouldn’t bother with pantone.
If you are running a commercial shop then get the ink mixed by your ink maker; its much more economical than buying the scales and other equipment necessary to do accurate color matching, and much less time consuming, and wastes far less ink.

Yes, the Pantone mixing system is too difficult - that’s why commercial printers have been using it sucessfully for 45 years. For the last three years I have taught a 10 week printing class three times a year with 12-15 students in each class. We used the Pantone system and rarely had trouble with it (and weren’t even using a scale). I have even used it by starting with an old can of pre-mixed (not process) color and adjusting from that point. If you want to have a lot of extra expense and extra ink laying about, please order your ink a pound at a time. The ink companies could always use the extra business.

I don’t have any experience with Pantone’s new Goe system, I just stick with Pantone Solid Uncoated or Pantone Solid Matte. Works like a dream, every designer knows how to spec it and every printer knows how to match it. We typically order custom inks—but we try to limit our house ink colors to about 10-12 per year. If someone wants custom we simply pass on the cost of the mix ($30/lb locally)

halfpenny…

do you have any tips then for using the pantone guide?

thanks

I have an old Pantone Matte color book…. BUT I must admit that I don’t use the formulas. I just use the color samples for deciding what color is to be printed and then match that up “by eye”…. sort of like the way an artist mixes paint for a painting.

I guess that method defeats the purpose of Pantone Color Matching, but it works for my shop.
I assume that if I can’t see the difference, then nobody else will either. (Then again, I don’t work with designers… )

I learned to mix inks 10 or 15lbs of ink at a time using a big Pelouze scale and a Pantone book. It was kind of fun to keep 5lbs of ink rotating on a big ink knife and walking 10 or 15 feet to the ink fountain without a mishap. I am not familiar with the Goe system, but from the sound of it it probably has half-tone values or some other things not really applicable to letterpress. I use an old, beat-up, 30 year old book and it works just fine. The only thing added to the modern standard PMS book is the addition of flourescent and metallic inks which can’t be mixed and must be ordered straight-up. Because I have been mixing inks for 35 years I have gotten pretty good at eyeballing amounts, but would recommend using a scale especially if you are mixing a half pound or more.

If you want to really understand about mixing color I recommend a book “Blue and Yellow Don’t Make Green” by Michael Wilcox - available online from the Wilcox School of Color. It deals with watercolor and oil paints, but the pigments are the same for inks as well, just another vehicle for the medium. With the costs of everything rising so dramatically, the accidental method of mixing inks is to expensive and it really helps to have an understanding of what you are actually doing when you mix pigments together.

One good thing to remember is black and reflex blue will absolutely overwhelm a mix, so be very conservative when you are called to add small amounts. Also, greens tend to have trouble drying, so it is good to add some extra dryer to them. Let me know if you need help, individual situations can really affect inks (humidity, paper stock, press speed, &c…). Sometimes you have to try several remedies before finding one that works.

Looks like xrite/pantone is still selling the latest rendition of it’s color guides before the switch to Geo. Goe is their newest “system” and personally I’ve not seen any designer use it yet. I presume at some point in the future they will force everyone off the old system and onto Goe. If your looking for brand new fan book look for “graphics” under the product menu on their site. Then look to “PANTONE MATCHING SYSTEM® solid color” for the books.

Anything labeled with “BRIDGE” is to match solid color to either RGB, LAB, CMYK or possibly Hexachrome mixes. Not anything you’ll need unless your printing solid colors in process ;)

~~The only thing added to the modern standard PMS book is the addition of flourescent and metallic inks~~

That’s not true actually. At least twice now Pantone has changed the whiteness and grade of the paper the books are printed on. They’ve changed the coated color to 175 line and the uncoated to 150 line for the process books. They’ve added many colors that can be mixed from the standard set. They’ve also changed many of the formulas as well as the process matches for colors. They also have pastel books now in addition to metallic and florescent.

Lammy- It sounds like you are talking about several different books as some of those you listed were not included in the book I bought for the school a couple of years ago. I don’t know any letterpress printers currently using process printing, altho there are probably some brave ones out there. Pastels are generally made by adding some variant of white to the mix, but would probably be a handy reference to have for those pesky designers. My book isn’t white anymore, kind of old and grey with thumbprints, but it still works just fine, thank you.

we got all our books from ink suppliers until they stopped giving them away for free, so most of our are not very white these days either.

Check out Pantone’s website sometime, the vast array of what they offer these days is just dizzying.

Just to note: Designers are not pesky. We are simply looking for a result that matches what we are envisioning. I am a designer by day and a letterpress printer by night. I have come to learn how to let go of some things and push the process to work for what I want. Please don’t think of us as pesky. I have found myself not telling some of the “old guard” that I am a designer just to avoid the looks and annoying comments that follow. We may insist on pushing the envelope here and there, but don’t look at that as annoying, it’s an adventure that could end in a surprisingly beautiful result.

As for the Pantone guides: I use the uncoated formula guide and its ratios to mix inks as a jumping off point. Because I have been using the Pantone system for so long, I kind of think of color in that way. It’s a little tricky when mixing small amounts and not having a super accurate scale, but it gets you started. After that you just mix in a little of this and a little of that until it looks like what you want. At least that has worked for me.

In my interactions with designers I was shocked at how much they made vs how much of the actual work I did (including telling the designers what was or wasn’t humanly possible, because they hadn’t a clue). Calling them “pesky” was being nice.

Believe me, it’s not that hard to do. Of course I have been doing it a long time but for offset printing, same ink.
I do use scales to measure ink in parts. I try to stay with 1/4, 1/2 or 1 lb. amounts. Say for instance 485 red. 8 parts Pantone Yellow & 8 parts Rubine Red. Equal amounts of each. That makes 1 lb. My formula chart is for 1 lb. mixes or double for 2 lb. mixes. My scales are in parts so its kind of easy to do. Just break the proportions down. 8 to 8, 4 to 4, 2 to 2 or even 1 to 1. Smaller amounts are harder to measure. Pretty accurate & consistant. But your do have to have the right basic colors to start with. Yellow, Reflex Blue, Process Blue, 072 Blue(close to reflex blue), Transparent White, Green, Black, 032 Red(close to 185 Red), Warm Red, 021 Orange(close to 165 orange), Rubine Red, Rhodamine Red, 012 Yellow(close to process yellow), Purple & Violet. These are all of the Pantone mixing colors (15 colors). These colors don’t have formulas.
Just don’t try to use rubber based ink on coated paper. It may never dry.
It also seems that Reflex Blue or colors that contain Reflex Blue take longer drying time.
Good luck,
Bob

Pesky is truly being nice for some LOL. I find though that those are the ones that aren’t really designers, but call themselves one because they have a computer and a copy of adobe ;)

A good, skilled, knowledgeable designer is like a good skilled knowledgeable pressman, hard to come by and worth their weight in gold. I’d give my eye teeth for a good designer who was just pushing the envelope and trying to achieve something of beauty and perfection as long as they were just as willing and patient to see it happen.

I have stopped using the Pantone matching system for letterpress.The inks are all formulated for offset and print differently letterpress. Letterpress tends to lay more ink, so to get a good match with good coverage. you have to ad tint base or opaque white which ultimately changes the color.
I just tell my customers I can come darn close letterpress, but if you want a dead Pantone match then I can print it offset.

Sumner

I have never heard anything so ridiculous. There are definite reasons for using transparent and opaque white. If you have to use them to alter an existing mix then the mix is wrong (unless of course they are called for in the mix). If you don’t use a PMS guide then what the heck do you use?

I use to mix colors myself. You can look at the PMS guide and very much mix to a similar similar tone, by mixing cyan, yellow and magenta. The mix of the 3 gives a washed black. Some spot colors like reflex blue can’t be matched, or fluorescents &c. Add to this 3 colors, black, transparent and opaque whites and you will be able to come up with a lot of colors…

I agree that following the pantone guide in letterpress, due to more pigment being transfered to the paper then in offset, you will end up getting ‘darn close’ color. That happens because the water washes ink coverage in an offset plate. A letterpress press don’t use water or fointain solutions, is pure pigment, laid on the plate, in my case with a lot of ink.

You can use pantone colors as you palette, but you have to print it yourself, and the result is what you get. For exemple, PMS Red 185. That for my eye is magenta ‘lightened’ with white opaque, then adding a bit of yellow. Of course, with certainty to get that color, you have to look at the sample, pms or whatever and match it in your print with the ink in the press. The very pms 185 may look different from a offset printed sample! I say it looks darker if printed as heavy solids, in letterpress.

I don’t remember right out of my head any book, but you could learn a lot about mixing colors by searching for ” Complementary Colors ” —sure there are books for that out there.

If you like the result when you print red 185, good. But that 185 will not match the pms guide if compared.

Cheers!

André

I use the standard PMS book for reference with letterpress projects. I can use it with confidence for offset.

Sumner

For a PMS color that is required, I try to use two PMS colors down in the book. Some times it is a completely different color. I don’t have my book in front of me so I can’t give you an example….look and you will see. So I use transparent white to dilute the offset PMS…which should give a darn near right color that matches the PMS swatch book. Make sure that you do a color wash on your rollers…as many times that are needed ( I have to say this, most rollers are not throughly cleaned and then pollute the color you are trying to achieve.)

If you look through the PMS solid color book you’ll notice most often the center most patch is the base color. Then they mix in black in the lower patches and white in the lighter ones. iirc all the original 3 digit colors are this way, some of the 4 digit and newer colors don’t follow that pattern though.

Lots of good information that will take me a while to sort through. Currently I do not use a scale. I am a bit intimidated by this method, never having done it before. Is there a particular scale you would recommend? (I usually mix small amounts)

Any good scale that will measure a decimal of a gram should be good. I used to use a tri-beam scale with sliding weights. I think even a mailing scale could work.

Pantone formulas are listed in parts so you do not necessarily need a scale, just an accurate way of getting 1, .5, .25, .125 parts of whatever. It’s been mentioned here before that it’s possible to use ink from a tube and a ruler to mix colors.

/* Devil’s Tail Press
‘In my interactions with designers I was shocked at how much they made vs how much of the actual work I did (including telling the designers what was or wasn’t humanly possible, because they hadn’t a clue). Calling them “pesky” was being nice.’
*/

If a designer’s job was to do the printing, they wouldn’t have much need of you, would they? If you are looking for better pay, you could always quit and become a designer. EZ $$$ bay-bee! That is, if you are a good designer, can hustle up some business, and work really fast. Otherwise you get a mess of pissed off clients, a dying business, and a lot of debt.

If you think designers are bad, you should get to know their clients.

:(

I have designed plenty of jobs; second guessing clients is something you learn how to do over 35 years of printing. I still stand by what I say. Our jobs as printers would be a lot easier if designers would spend some real time in our shops trying to understand what it is we do and how long it really takes. Try coming up with a drawing, faxing same for approval, waiting for approval, engraving said design on wood, proofing same and sending finished proof by Fed-Ex 2000 miles in three days. I’ve done it more times than I can count.

Wow, so much information here! I am just a hobby shop and I’ve been a bit stymied by color mixing. My issue with the Pantone book is more that I don’t have the $60-100 on hand to shell out for it. I have found it to be a good “jumping off point” even if I’m not strictly matching (when I’m printing at the local non-profit print place)—but I’d love to find another source for home use.

HD-Tiegel mentions PMS 185. I use a lot of Van Son’s “Dutch Fireball Red” and I understand that this is PMS 185. Whatever it is, I happen to love it and use it quite a bit just solid as a “printer’s red” (i.e. here: http://flickr.com/photos/lyza/2897448049/in/set-72157607176565799/ )

Anyway: My main issue with the Pantone system is that I am mixing in quantities *way* too small for realistic weighing. But even an approximation of ratio goes a long way—that is, even eyeballing a mix will get you surprisingly close to the original color.